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145635-why-dont-the-ga-crafted-master-weaponsmith-weapons-go-to-ilvl-96
Content ---- ---- Don't BoE raid drops still exist? | |} ---- Haven't started raiding so only assumptions. All depends on the drop rate of the mats from the raids I guess. It can't be "easier" to craft a weapon of the same power than to get it from a raid drop. Edited October 29, 2015 by H3rboss | |} ---- It's very easy to get Boe in the raids at higher ilvl and sell them for a pretty penny. Way more money than mats considering the mat rates Raiders posted before. | |} ---- ---- You cannot. Raid crafts cost a lot to make and cost a lot to get to the level where you can even make. And yet are lower than Boe drops in the raids. Bop drops are higher than the Boe. | |} ---- Yes, this was going to be my point. It doesn't really make much sense that one sellable raid item that simply requires getting something to drop from trash is more powerful than a sellable raid item that requires a significant amount of work. | |} ---- ---- Based on the crafting changes, I just think Carbine really hates crafting. Like maybe they are hoping that everyone will just give up crafting and become raiders. :lol: I think I spent between 3-6 plat just to do all the Outfitter daily quests for one day. I had all the mats except the ones that only come from the vendors. Suffice to say, I'm not doing crafting dailies (or just crafting beyond Cooking) anymore. Which makes me sad because I like helping people. | |} ---- ---- ---- It doesn't drop gear for all 20 players at once :) Edited October 29, 2015 by ebp | |} ---- ---- the crafted gear is mainly ment as an alternative for people/raids with bad luck with drops during progression. the imbuements are easy and once imbued those items are better than dungeon drops and help you during progression. you can buy all recipes at the vendor in thayd so you dont need to wait for the recipe to drop in the raid. If your guild for example has bad luck with weapon drops your weaponsmith can craft ilvl92 weapons which are a huge upgrade from ilvl80. if your tanks have bad gear and ilvl80 gear you can craft them ilvl92 gear. Those items are not meant to be BiS. They didnt even exist pre f2p, so stop complaining.... The question of why some ilvl96/ilvl116 items are BoE i cant answer but its a nice feature to make some plat for the guild (activate guild repair cost for a raid or two) or to give it to someone who wasnt in the raidgroup this evening but could need the item. If you dont have a guild buying those items are worthless so you cant make money from them to sell to randoms. I can craft all GA/DS heavy armors and i dont really bother to make them anyway. the mats are so expensive, no random would buy it atm. Edited October 29, 2015 by furoflo | |} ---- ---- Those 4 ilvls make a big difference since it means you can put pure runes in them. | |} ---- ---- OP was suggesting that ilvl 92 not was worth it being only 4 ilvls above purple crafted weapons, but that's the difference between pure and superb runes. I was not comparing the crafted to GA gear. | |} ---- Dont forget the Stats that dont scale by overcharging. Thats nearly 1 rune per piece, needed to compensate these stat disadvantage. For the Stats that scale with overcharging, you need around 5% overcharging and that means a failure rate of ~30%. And still the missing non scaling stats (Assaultpower, Armor, HP). And dont forget the failure rate by not matching sockets. This means for the lvl 76 gear you need 1 vet dungeon drop (complexity matrix for the 72 core), 2 raiddrops (Genetic Matrix for Armor/Weapon and 76 Core). You then need to risk 30%+ failure to compensate the disadvantage in stats. With failurerate in count, its 1 drop vs 6 drops. For the lvl 85 gear you need 1 vet dungeon drop, 4 raiddrops to compete with 1 raiddrop item. (not sure of the needed overcharge, cause i dont know the endlevel of that gear) With failurerate it will end at 1 vs 10 drops. I know this is not the perfect comparison, because it estimates you get the perfect item or can trade it 1:1. But even if its a 1:3 ratio. Its still a huge advantage to crafting. Yes you can choose your stats, but there isnt that much variaty in stats. You allways choose 3 out of 4 stats that are offensive, defensive or good for healing... Ok you have the controll over the balance of these 3 stats, but is this worth the missing Armor, HP, Assault/Support Power? 300 HP and 37 Armor on a chest Piece should not be underestimated. | |} ---- Yes yes, I edited it immediately >_<. Sorry. This is what I get for trying to do things in a rush. Please explain what you mean by this. This depends on a lot of things. A 5% overcharge is actually below average, you can get up to 12%, with 8-10 being the average. Also, you can reduce that to much lower than 30%. A 5% overcharge is to me 13% failure rate. Use the talents (and signature bonus) to your advantage. Well, if you weren't missing that, then the crafted ones would be 100% superior, now wouldn't they? -_- ... You have to value in the AP/SP loss and the ratings gain to measure whether a piece is superior or inferior. Each piece of stat has a weight associated with it, and this means that in some situations one will be better, in others another. I fail to see the relevance of this. This makes no sense. Why do you need a 72 core at all? You can craft 76 (GA) gear with no dungeon drops at all, just use an advanced primal power core (exact same iLevel, exact same energy, obtainable wherever) and the only thing you need is the genetic matrix. Again, relevance? The risk chance is risk chance. It doesn't affect the created item at all. This is not a discussion of the viability of crafting in a cost/reward ratio, there are threads for that, this is about iLevel and item strength only. Chance of failure is utterly irrelevant to this. Again, I will need explanation. What do you mean by this? I can't make heads or tails from this phrase. Tell that to the class/role combos wherein deflect is twice as valuable as glance, or where critical hit severity is almost twice as valuable as multi-hit. Yes. Go tell them that. Go tell them that an item with 100 crit 100 vigor 100 multi-hit is better than an item with 95 crit 95 vigor 95 critsev. Go ahead. Sometimes, yes. And unless you calculate it precisely, you simply don't know. Since you haven't done it, there you have your response. And on a DPS or healer class? I'm willing to bet the vast majority of players would trade that for a single unit of a useful stat. Edited October 29, 2015 by Timiniel | |} ---- ---- AS/SP on a weapon. Armor, Health and AS/SP on an armor dont scale with overcharging. Dont mess things up. Either you have 5% overcharge@13% failure or you can get over 8% overcharge, you cant have both. Without wrong socket. If you have to change the Socket for the perfect item, you lose even more of you overcharge capabilities. funfact: max overcharge is around 24%@80 failure rate. Would this be a bad thing? Someone still has to go to the raids and get the matrix. And you then have to go to the Raids to level your item. You have alot more work todo compared to the BoE drops. It doubles the amount of material needed to get your item, if the craft failed.... or triples, ... Sry, missed that power core, but you will need it atleast for the 85 gear. But on the otherhand, you still need a raiddrop. or where will you get the matrix from? See the two above, you need more material, and more materials means more raid drops. You never started an item, with the wrong sockets? And you know changing these sockets either increase failure rate and sometimes end in garbadge. And this will then increase your crafting cost -> again another raiddrop is needed. And now tell me, how much failurerate do you get if you have to change one socket and need to get to 5% overcharge to compensate the stat-disadvantage? Is this even possible with your talents? | |} ---- ---- It doesn't drop 20 genetic matrix at once either. Each miniboss give 3 96 piece and a genetic matrix and each boss give 3 100 piece and a genetic matrix. Why is it that the genetic matrix that require tons of crafting mats on top of 900 vouchers from the crafter give items of lower quality than a miniboss drop when that very crafted item require you to kill an actual boss in that raid? Nobody here is asking for the crafted gear to be better than the gear dropped from bosses, but when the gear is 4 item level behind miniboss gear and 8 behind boss gear while requiring you to kill bosses. This doesn't make any sense at all. It would make sense if the crafted gear could imbue up to 100 by increasing the imbuement by X for each boss killed in GA so when you are 6/6 in GA you have a iLvl 100 crafted item and those of us who care about getting the best gear we can will go out of our way to get overcharged crafted fully imbued gear versus the lazies who only use the dropped gear. Not only that, but the recipes for this gear is very costly to the crafter. | |} ---- What two subjects do you mean? The value of an item should depend on the effort to get it. And this includes crafting failrate, droprate and imbuement. | |} ---- since you can overcharge the item AND distribute the stats on it as you want this item would be BY FAR BiS. again..... the current system is EXACTLY what wildstar is about. for the best gear you have to raid AND complete those raids. To enable guilds to progress faster there is now an option in the game in form of crafting items that help during progression and are way ahead of dungeon quality. thank god you cant craft the best items in this game... | |} ---- We are not discussing the "value" (as in cost) of an item in this thread. So leave those discussions to the appropriate threads, and instead focus on what this thread is about: The "power" of an item (as in how strong it is in the game). Thank you. Alternatively, accept that people might ignore irrelevant and offtopic statements that you might make. | |} ---- Last I checked wildstar was all about being hardcore. This mean that if you want the best gear you will go out of your way to get it. Going out of your way means you are willing to do more than other people by crafting an item with overcharge in order to get the best gear possible. Because YOU are too lazy to do that and want to have the gear dropped from the boss to be the best gear, why do you believe that you should have better gear than the guy who actually got out of his way to craft an overcharge piece of gear and proceeded to imbue said piece of gear by killing every single boss in that current tier of raid?Are you going to tell me that the Eldan gauntlets shouldn't be the BiS for GA because they drop from vet dungeons too? Edited October 30, 2015 by Fluffy McNuggets | |} ---- With that logic, killing a boss that drops lvl 100 gear should increase the level of the craftet item to nearly 100 and not 92 (lower than mini bosses that drop lvl96 items). And dont ignore the fact, that you have to go there atleast twice (to get the matrix and then do the imbuement). Im not talking about "value" as in cost, I'm talking about "value" as of reward for your effort. And in my opinion, you cant seperate those two things. You cant tell me, that an item, that needs a kill of a raidboss that drops lvl 100 items should not have the "power" close to lvl100. And overcharging cant compensate everything ;) | |} ---- You can have your opinion all you want, doesn't make it true, and doesn't force other people to follow it and abide by it. The rest of your post is irrelevant and already addressed before. I have no intention of repeating myself, specially not if this is your attitude. | |} ---- ---- Show me who else agrees with your opinion. | |} ---- Read through this thread and every other thread on the state of crafting. Also, hi. Edited November 1, 2015 by Naunet | |} ---- Tunnel vision much? | |} ---- I read the entire thread since its beginning. Yes? Not a single person stating that you can't separate the two issues. EDIT: Let's make this clear, precise and specific. It is evident that the two issues can be separated and analyzed individually. Since I do it, and others do as well, it is possible. This means that people are simply UNWILLING to separate the issues, instead of INCAPABLE. Edited November 1, 2015 by Timiniel | |} ---- You cant separate the effort to get an item and its power. It always was and will always be, "the higher the effort to get an item, the more powerful an item will be" or "risk vs. reward". I hope you agree with me at least at this point. And this simple rule generates this two issues. Either the effort to get crafted gear is to high or they are not powerful enough. You have lower droprates 1:3 compared to BoE, failrates due to mismatching sockets while crafting (more effort if it fails), you have to do the imbuement, and so on. And what would be the solution to fix this issue with the effort? - increase the droprate of matrices? would make BOE drops worthless - no failure while crafting? doesnt fit to risk/reward The other solution would be a lot easier, increase the itemlevel. So its power would be between the normal drops and the boss drops. And maybe with more effort (overcharging) slightly more powerful than boss drops, but with the need to kill said boss for the imbuement. Edited November 2, 2015 by Aurinya Abusive language | |} ---- ---- Clearly, I can. I did do so already. I CAN. It is possible and it is done. Yes, but do you not see this is irrelevant? This is a different analysis, a good one, which I agree, which I already posted about in several threads at great depth, but that doesn't mean we can't just look at the items' power level independently from their cost of acquisition! We can, and sometimes, we should. A lot of good suggestions have already been given in several threads in this very forum. If the devs are listening (reading), they have plenty of different ideas to choose from. But still, the problem still stands: an item with 100 "power points" (let's call it that) that can be pushed to 110 power points for a risk, is still (if the failure chance doesn't manifest itself) just as good as any other 110 power points item, which was what was being discussed. What was being discussed was that you mentioned several things which were simply FALSE. You say there is no variety in stats, but there is as examplified. You assume a crafter has no -failure chance talents and is not a subscriber in your calculations, when the vast majority of people will have at least some of those. You ignore different values for stats, and you assume that having a higher number means the item is better. These are all incorrect! If you start from a set of premises that are false and don't correct your conclusions when they are raised, what do you or anyone stands to gain? I can separate the two issues. This thread needs the separation because you, and some other people think that a (example) 92 iLevel item is automatically worse than a 96 iLevel one when that isn't the case! One can use the same runes, the items have the same number of runes, and if the 92 one allows you to choose the perfect stats which the 96 one doesn't have and you overcharge it enough, the end result is, and you might be shocked but the truth is still the same, that the 92 one IS BETTER. Then, with this conclusion reached we can then analyze the cost/power ratio of the items, and not before. | |} ---- Dont put words in my mouth I have never said. And you still think, the effort/power ratio of this item is good? | |} ---- i crafted blue tank gear which was > raiddrops back in the days when we had GA progression because you could set the stats as you liked. it was pure rng to get 5 runeslots (the crafting system was different) so you wasted tons and tons of plat to get a blue item just to be 1% more tanky compared to a GA drop.This was the same for DD items, the best dps items in GA were blue crafted items... I was not too lazy to put in time and effort but i can see WHY this system got changed and i 100% agree that it is a good change with free to play.If the system would not have been changed I could buy all recipes and craft BiS gear for both specs for everyone in the raid. This items might be better than the items of the next raid. so they would need to design the encounters around those crafted items and not around the items that drop in the previous raid. so everyone who has no time OR money to get those items get punished.... I dont agree that it is hard to craft and attune this gear, all you need to do is farm dungeons for gold and glory... its just a grind if you make those items BiS and you cant deny the p2w elements of crafted gear being > raid drops. eldan gauntlets are a raidquestline and its just 1 item that does not influence the raid balance too much. its just slightly better than the raiddrops. Edited November 2, 2015 by furoflo | |} ---- ---- Nobody cares about what the system was "back in the days". What matters is the current system and the current system is terribad and make Crafting completely worthless past Veteran dungeon gear. I can certainly deny the p2w elements of crafted raid gear considering they are worse than vet dungeons without imbuement and require you to be actively raiding in order to actually get them to a iLvl that means anything. The simple fact that minibosses drop iLvl 96, that you can buy 5 pieces of iLvl 96 for glory once you killed X-89 and that there are even iLvl 100 from certain minibosses if you do the stupid easy challenges (I want that ~1k crit hit shield from centrifuge :( ), how is it unreasonable to believe that crafted Genetic gear should reach at the very least iLvl 96 or the iLvl it should actually be... 98. Same thing for Datascape crafted gear. Last I checked, nobody is bitching about Master Complex gear being iLvl 88 which is only 2 iLvl below world bosses and a whopping 8 iLvl above vet dungeons. So why is it wrong for Genetic gear to be 2 iLvl above miniboss and 2 iLvl below bosses? I mean seriously... I was average iLvl 93 from killing X-89 once and not getting a single piece of gear and without crafted Genetic gear. (WTB more support systems) And crafted items require imbuement from raids but it's not fine for it to be only slighty worse than raid drops. Totally make sense. Edited November 2, 2015 by Fluffy McNuggets | |} ---- see, we finally agree. | |} ---- Dont be mad, you wanted to discuss the cost/power ratio, after you made clear your standpoint of the state of crafted 92er gear. (which probably everyone agree with and which everyone knows since page 1 of this thread) | |} ---- ---- Pre-*cupcake*ing-cizely. I wonder why people take so long to accept and acknowledge this. Edited November 3, 2015 by Timiniel | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- where do you think my numbers came from? :rolleyes: Feel free to link me the numbers you have. No one is talking about BoE drops. We are talking about the difference between crafted gear and 96 BoP gear. (Was to early in the morning, forget about this) You can buy both in AH, dont have to go into raid to imbue, can put max runes on it at the time you bought the 96 gear... Edited November 5, 2015 by whyme2 | |} ---- it had been like this on the PTR prior to f2p and someone discovered it and thats why they changed it to eliminate the pay to win possibilities of it. the craftable raidgear was created with the intention to make it possible for guilds to gear their raiders if they had bad luck with drops and therefore progress faster. the BoE drops are always used guild internally first to gear players who could not be there for the raid. then they go to twinks for a lower price compared to the AH. Then they end up in the AH and i agree this is a pay to win element but NOT for every slot and NOT BiS. Edited November 5, 2015 by furoflo | |} ---- ----